A discussion re marriage and divorce between Alec MacLeod and Roy Waldrom
Alec: This is really interesting because I faced exactly that situation yesterday.
A couple I know have separated. In the meantime he has hooked up with another woman, a believer, and she is pregnant. Yesterday, at the Breakfast, they wanted to know what I thought about it. I have been waiting for this to come up but I have not gone to them, although clearly they have wanted to ask for some time.
I said that as far as the baby was concerned, what the baby needed was a stable, loving couple to bring it up. (Whatever mess they are making of their own lives, there’s no reason to mess up another!)
I knew this wasn’t the real question they were asking, the real question was a moral one: What did I think about what they had done.
I just knew that somehow I wanted to keep this relational, not to fall into the trap that they should now get married, because they ought to. The first thing I said was, that by their physical union they were already married—the paper is for everyone else. As for whether they should get the piece of paper, my next answer was to ask them, “What is Jesus saying they should do?” which they hadn’t asked, of course. Their answer was that they felt they didn’t need to. I said that I didn’t ask them what they felt, but what did Jesus have to say about it—just to keep them on it.
I said that if they were going to base their relationship on what they were agreed about, then that would be the basis of their relationship (which I didn’t say was, independence). I said that it was OK when they could agree, but that the time would come when pressure would drive a wedge between them and they couldn’t agree and they would at least end up in conflict, if not separation, with all the damage that would do to the child. So, in essence, so as not to be left with the law answer, I made sure that they didn’t get past that issue.
I did, however, point out to them that as far as the ‘marriage’ issue was concerned, there was some substance in it that it did represent, if it was real, a decision and a statement, that you had decided to remain with one another for the rest of your lives and that there was a case, again with the child in mind, that gave it security. However, the more I think about all this, the less sure I am. Either the union is about relationship or it is not and no bit of paper will keep it together if it isn’t. Given that the divorce rate amongst (American) Pentecostal Christians, after they got saved, is higher that than in the rest of society, there seems to be little value in the social custom of getting married.
Perhaps we would be far better off not preaching about the importance of marriage, per se, and instead simply preaching what marriage is.
That marriage is a physical union and when you have done that, before God you are married.
If kids were taught that, they might be better prepared. Right now, they think that they can do it and so long as nobody knows, or if they say they are sorry to God, that’s the end of it.
If they were told that they’d lost their virginity, had immutably changed their state, that they were now married to someone, and if they didn’t carry on the relationship, they were divorced, this would give them a serious reality check!
One further thought about all this. The spirit of divorce is rooted in our independence. In fact, maybe we can say that divorce permits a spirit of independence (or that we place ourselves under its control).
Moreover, human agreement—which outwardly looks like unity— without God’s agreement is actually the strongest manifestation of Independence from God that there is. When men say, “Let US,” they are rising up against God, as they did when building the tower of Babel, just one example.
I guess that human agreement will often bind people together, but it is then a covenant of independence (from God). However, the very independence it is rooted in, means that it is not a relationship they have entered into of Life, but a covenant of Death. So, some people won’t get divorced again, but it is now only because of a greater oath (judgement) they have made. All a mess, looks like life, but is actually death.
Anyway, here is one scenario: a couple fall in love, have sex (get married), fall out of love, have sex with someone else (get divorced).
The falling out of love and the ensuing adultery takes place as they allow the spirit of independence in, and the actual divorce takes place through intercourse (adultery). The new union is now made on the basis of independence, even when the new partner comes along and says,” I know you are hurting, I can meet your needs.”
Based on independence, it can go either way, depending on either’s judgements.
We actually have another situation.
Whenever a women is in a loveless marriage, with no affection shown toward her at all, and worse than that, abuse, (which often is about the rebellion against her father who failed to make the daughter feel secure.) she will withdraw sleeping with her husband as punishment
For that reason alone the marriage is doomed, because there is no sexual union.
Apart from the frustration it causes in the husband and how it leads him to say and do very hurtful things, she is, in our estimation, divorcing him. On the other hand, he, not showing her any tenderness at all, is surely divorcing her also. So, here’s the thing, she in rebelling against her father, loosed independence and divorce into the marriage. Maybe she needs to go back and ask her dad’s forgiveness.
What do you think?
Roy: Dear Alec,
At the bottom of your email you asked me what I think?
The short answer to that is I am trying not to think because most thinking rises out of judgment, good and evil, right and wrong.
What I do know is that what you sent is spot on, especially the independence being the root of it all.
In the absence of independence, there would be no divorce, there would be a strong bonding, meeting each others needs which is called loving each other.
From whatever angle one looks at it, it all has its root in judging the failure of the human father who is the human representative of Heavenly Father who is the beginning and sustainer of LIFE.
True, marriage is death to independence, if not, much hurt will lead to divorce.
the union of 2 people through sexual intercourse.
If they do not stay with each other and wander off for whatever reason, they are divorced, and let in the spirit of control called divorce.
One will judge they have a right to walk away, the other will judge them for their lack of commitment.
This can start a series of relationships, never certain of a committed partner.
Both men and women who move through a series of relationships without the understanding of what marriage is and requires of them, have set up a cycle of judgement/disappointment….
Down the track they may marry, and unless either have repented for the first divorce and renounced the control out of their lives, any marriage will fail.
This has caused a huge amount of marriage break-ups, both in the Church and in the world.
REAL MARRIAGE IS THE DEATH OF INDEPENDENCE.
A marriage union is about relationship or it is not. If there is a physical union, before God, the people involved are married…whether there is paper or not. †
If a couple base a relationship about what they agreed about, then there is the wedge of discord if conflict arises. †One partner will judge the other out of independence.
The Spirit of Divorce is rooted in the Spirit of Independence. †Divorce allows the spirit of independence in, or rather we place our self under its control.
Human agreement [which outwardly looks like unity, but is without God’s agreement,] is the strongest manifestation of independence there is.
In such an agreement [without God] what exists is a Covenant of Death. †In such a scenario a couple fall in love, have sex [get married], fall out of love, have sex with someone else [get divorced].
The falling out of love and the ensuing adultery takes place as they allow the spirit of independence in and the actual divorce takes place through the intercourse [adultery]. The new union is now based on the spirit of independence.
Another scenario is a loveless marriage where the husband shows no affection to the wife. †She is divorcing him by lack of intimacy and he is divorcing her by lack of tenderness.
Key Point. †In the absence of independence, there would be no divorce. There would be strong bonding by each partner meeting the other’s needs—this is called loving each other.
†It would seem to me, that Independence is not the problem, but Judgment is the problem, because if there were no Judgment, there wouldn’t be any Independence.†Judgment is the door through which Independence is allowed to control.
As for the Love issue, Love is just simply a choice. † We choose to Love and we choose not to Love. † If we choose to Love someone, then we need to make that choice, not just once, but every day! It is basically getting up every morning and identifying who our spouse is and choosing to Love them for another day . . . just the same as we are instructed to do with Jesus. † Whoever will come after Me, let him take up his cross daily and follow Me . . .†
Again, I guess that problems come in this area when Judgment is exercised! ! ?† †If or when the Judgment is lifted, the relationship would return to normal.
I guess we could go even further back and look at whether or not the marriage relationship was Father God instigated . . . or not . . . or what was the heart motive for marriage in the first place! ! ?† †If not, then all sorts of problems, like the ones mentioned are more than likely to cause issues, especially in ‘Christian’ marriages.
Maybe the punch line should be . . . JUDGMENT IS THE DEATH OF REAL MARRIAGE AND LOCKS ONE INTO INDEPENDENCE.† †
The answer to all these problems . . . REPENTANCE! ! ! ! !† †Put everything on the altar, and then ask our Heavenly Father what to do.
REAL MARRIAGE IS THE DEATH OF INDEPENDENCE.
Also, we need to be careful not to separate the male and female needs!
1. Our goal is to underline that marriage is a relationship, not a contract, and to separate between these two, which are so muddled.
2. As part of that, we want also to say something about what a marriage actually is.
It is not fundamentally a loving relationship, per se—though it is designed to be, but that fundamentally it is the physical union between a man and a woman.
For all who are professing Christians they need to know what the Bible says on the subject, especially re the issue of not withholding sexual relations, except for the purpose of fasting. This must be by agreement.
Sex without love is a barren and even abusive experience.
3. We need to show why the physical union is so fundamental. There are wider spiritual aspects of what it represents, there is a transmission that takes place during intercourse. You could stir up some interesting comment on line with that one! I believe it is absolutely correct.
4. As a result of all this, marriage is not to be treated lightly, [as the marriage vows say]. If people, if teens, understood that when they had sex they were getting married, and understood something of the ‘change’ that takes place in them and before God as a result, and that it was not ‘just a sin’ that could be forgiven, or one that by concealing it alone wipes it away, and they knew about what it would mean to a future relationship, they would refrain from having a sexual relationship till they met the person they knew they wanted to spend the rest of their life with.
Genesis 2:24 4:1
1 Corinthians 7:4-5